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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Mai 21, 2019 11:58    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Hello Bee, like this new physics, handling really improved, but on tarmac stages the tyres is bad I think. It always sliding on any tarmac surface. It feel like a winter tyres on tarmac, not slicks.. On start I cant do a smooth take off. On Fiesta 2019 tyres are spinning on gears 1st, 2nd, 3rd.. It is really bad. Due to small tyre grip cars feels very understeer. Please look at tarmac tyres.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Mai 21, 2019 12:04    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

same opinion here why decrease grip on tarmac when gravel has better grip now?

many people considered before that you need more overall grip on NGP, just like 10% more and it would be fine. now its also very hard to drive (until the point you imagine driving in the rain).

gravel world records will be updated for 120%, but tarmac... 5.30 on joux plane was all i could do, and i was pushing really hard (prev. NGP in april, ds3 2011)

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Mai 21, 2019 12:22    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

A real tire has not a single "grip" value.

If you put it this way, the maximum tarmac grip has not been changed.

Rather it has been slightly increased, depending on the vehicle.

But ... when a tire is saturated or over-saturated, the "grip" decreases significantly.

This proper tire modelling is missing in all arcade games and was also almost not present in the original game physics.

Honestly I don't give a shit on stage times being driven in other games or with other physics.
I will never model glued-to-the-ground physics just to please a few AWD hotlappers.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Mai 21, 2019 12:39    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Zitat:
Honestly I don't give a shit on stage times being driven in other games or with other physics.
I will never model glued-to-the-ground physics just to please a few AWD hotlappers.


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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Mai 21, 2019 13:06    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I confirm the tarmac grip problem. There seems to be a bug. Even the sound behaves as if it is on gravel. It's not just a bit less of grip, it really is like driving on gravel. I'm afraid it's some problem with the installation/rbrcit or something. That also makes me wonder if gravel is really what it should be or if it is also buggy.
Workerbee, you really should be less defensive, less insecure, nobody is against you man.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Mai 21, 2019 15:33    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Firstly I was thinking, that tyres have a temperatures, so I hope, when I get circa 2 kms, tyres will be fine. But it was not true.. Tyres are without grip and yes, I agree, that I heard a gravel sound when it slides.

Bee, just look at some rally videos, how hankook, pirelli or michelin slicks behaves.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Mai 21, 2019 16:08    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I kind of experienced something similar as the guys before mentioned. I don't know if there is really less grip and I also didn't compare any stage times, but on tarmac it feels like the car isn't giving the driver as much feedback as it does in the current NGP version. It also feels like I need more steering input to get the car turn, or like there is a bit more play in the steering. Maybe I'll have to adjust an sharpen my steering settings and retry, but as of now this my overall impression.
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Mai 21, 2019 16:13    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Come on guys, I can confirm that the CURRENT build is indeed buggy. wink

After the first few meters driving on tarmac you can hear that something is wrong.
The gravel sound is audible and the grip is not as it is to be expected in NGP 6.

... already working on tracking down the issue. Confused

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Mai 21, 2019 20:37    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Well, sometimes things go just wrong.

Found the issue, and fixed it. No big deal. smile

Version 6.0.737.401 is available for download.

Due to some issues with readonly files and RBRCIT I was not able to test it properly.

Your turn !

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Mai 22, 2019 16:00    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

here comes the stig:

diamond creek 2.49 im fiesta 19

zumindest ein paar russische zeiten werden wegradiert biggrin

auf asphalt ist immernoch langsam aber jetzt wirkt der reifen schärfer - das passt schon so muss nicht auf der uhr schneller sein aber das gefühl eines rennwagens ist da smile

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Mai 23, 2019 01:34    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Like others have pointed out, looks like one need more steering input now compared to the past. Also it doesnt feel linear, it feels it turns much more in the last 30% than the rest. Speaking for the fiesta19 but also for the other, the cars seem to be stuck sometimes on oversteering, it doesnt feel gradual, it feels too sudden that the rear goes out sometimes. Even adjusting diffs and all of that it seems to be encoded in the behavior.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Mai 23, 2019 03:27    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

but this is exactly what is in real life and i was missing in rbr - now it feels perfect for me. ngp5 was becoming too easy at some point, you could spin the wheels or lock them but not really loose the cars weight. more oversteering was needed and it came smile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7be0QrnvPmY
this is how it looks like - first clean run yesterday smile

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Mai 23, 2019 11:25    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Never was a fan of the Fiesta 2017 in NGP5. But the fiesta 2019 in NGP6 feels really amazing and with a setup even better. biggrin Steering feels really good for me.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Mai 23, 2019 19:28    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

[quote="anbarra"]but this is exactly what is in real life and i was missing in rbr - now it feels perfect for me. ngp5 was becoming too easy at some point, you could spin the wheels or lock them but not really loose the cars weight. more oversteering was needed and it came :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7be0QrnvPmY
this is how it looks like - first clean run yesterday :)[/quote]


I think the physics are better now, but something is strange with the steering input. Jurek, from watching your videos it seems you are not using a 540º standard steering ratio, are you? Because that changes everything. I think workerbee should model this aspects considering real life, not people playing with a 360 steering ratio. I was now checking onboards from córsica and they definetely dont put so much steering input to turn the car. People try this, fiesta19, 540º steering on your wheel, then turn 90º to the left or right, see how little the car turns.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Mai 23, 2019 19:38    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

i am driving at 450, 360 is too tight in my opinion smile

i tried 360 for ngp6 but all in all it was better getting used to new car with 450 than editing everything and then finding myself all day doing setups instead of getting feeling on the track smile

for me its like, no matter how the car is, i try to find my rhytm and push. used to drive at 540 and helmet camera before, so its all a matter of getting used. ofcouse with the time i came back to the bumper view, because i dont want to be surprised by things which can be seen only with bumpercam smile

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Mai 23, 2019 22:18    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

pedrodfa hat folgendes geschrieben:
I think workerbee should model this aspects considering real life, not people playing with a 360 steering ratio. I was now checking onboards from córsica and they definetely dont put so much steering input to turn the car. People try this, fiesta19, 540º steering on your wheel, then turn 90º to the left or right, see how little the car turns.


Agree, I have that same idea, but Bee is thinking that Im wrong... I give him a Fabia R5 data sheet with springs and so, and there is still helper spring very unrealistic values. In real life helper spring is very soft, you can press it with fingers, by data sheet its 2.0 N/mm, but in rbr is very hard, its around + - 37 N/mm, it depends what you set, but when i set it to 2.0, its undriveable.. In RBR, helper spring on tarmac is harder then main spring on gravel and this is bad..

Nice improve on last update, but if you want to get real data to RBR , there is still lot of work.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Mai 24, 2019 06:10    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Dennis Zetak hat folgendes geschrieben:
I give him a Fabia R5 data sheet with springs and so, and there is still helper spring very unrealistic values.

Unrealistic if you see it from your narrow minded perspective.

Dennis Zetak hat folgendes geschrieben:
In real life helper spring is very soft, you can press it with fingers, by data sheet its 2.0 N/mm,

I know that.
"In (my) real life" there are are hundreds of helper springs you can buy and put into your car's suspension.
Simple as that.

Dennis Zetak hat folgendes geschrieben:
but in rbr is very hard, its around + - 37 N/mm,

Hard is relative.

Dennis Zetak hat folgendes geschrieben:
it depends what you set, but when i set it to 2.0, its undriveable..

Because you don't know what a helper spring is used for and how to properly set it up.

What is your combined spring rate ?
When does the helper spring apply ?

Dennis Zetak hat folgendes geschrieben:
In RBR, helper spring on tarmac is harder then main spring on gravel and this is bad..

Ok, please tell me why.

What has the tarmac setup to do with the gravel setup ?
Do they interfere somehow with each other ?

Dennis Zetak hat folgendes geschrieben:


Nice improve on last update, but if you want to get real data to RBR , there is still lot of work.

Lot of work for you.
Get a grade in engineering or read a good book.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Mai 24, 2019 09:42    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Zitat:
In real life helper spring is very soft, you can press it with fingers, by data sheet its 2.0 N/mm, but in rbr is very hard, its around + - 37 N/mm, it depends what you set, but when i set it to 2.0, its undriveable.


suspension is a system with wise verse reaction, you cant only set one parameter to a special value and think its working for the rest too.
you have allways adjust springs, dampers, bumpstops and anti roll bar to a valid system.

As i look to the manufacturer of springs, you have only few low stiffness helper springs.

Show some videos and compare the car movement in same class, you will see some differences. you have some different kind of setups there.

And now you: please explain what have the low stiffness springs working for?

And the other point, why we need to discuss again about steering angle? the car turning diameter match to real life isn´t it? what is your real point, you got in which situation your "issue" ?

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Mai 24, 2019 15:12    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

something is veeeeery different from ngp5 to ngp6. How can it be that the turning radius changed so much?? Was workerbee that wrong in the past? Is he wrong now? What a dilemma we have in hands..

Made a small video with the fiestas to show how much the lock to lock turning radius changed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agg-4M08luo&feature=youtu.be

Now remember that lefebvre video somebody posted before? try to drive like that with those inputs... impossible, you have to turn the wheel much much more.
Something is clearly not right.
Remeber: having the wheel set up at 540º like it should be as a simulation, not 450 or anything lower.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Mai 24, 2019 18:50    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

pedrodfa hat folgendes geschrieben:
something is veeeeery different from ngp5 to ngp6. How can it be that the turning radius changed so much?? Was workerbee that wrong in the past? Is he wrong now? What a dilemma we have in hands..

Made a small video with the fiestas to show how much the lock to lock turning radius changed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agg-4M08luo&feature=youtu.be

Now remember that lefebvre video somebody posted before? try to drive like that with those inputs... impossible, you have to turn the wheel much much more.
Something is clearly not right.
Remeber: having the wheel set up at 540º like it should be as a simulation, not 450 or anything lower.


I believe that it is correct now in NGP 6.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m_CzLyUxTY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ_IMzZjG1c

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Mai 24, 2019 19:32    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Yep it looks correct to me now. I drive with the degree of steering in rbr like the cars have in real life. I dont have a problem. Its not the final NGP version remember. It still gets updates. Maybe it was wrong before and is correct now. If he found a better way to simulate the turning radius why not bring it in NGP6. Every NGP update gets Improvements and new things. tongue
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Mai 25, 2019 13:46    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Just to clear out: the first fiesta is ngp5, which seems to me the most correct.
Anyway, watching the first fiesta of Ogier reversing in the video above, I think its closer to ngp5 than it is to ngp6. Lets not forget also they are in gravel spec for finland, not sure if it makes a difference.
Maybe its just me, but seems really too much steering input to rotate the wheels. Thats why I mentioned the lefebvre video, i don't think it remotely matches ngp6 inputs..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP-gI7IOV44&fbclid=IwAR1crkB4UmcTRezVHR4DV6cyEsJfkQyKGcYPZ_d-6NgRbEX2c5rB-qTr1sI
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Mai 28, 2019 20:26    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Good news:

* New NGP plugin version 6.0.738.402 available for download !

* updated car physics
** Renault Clio 16S Williams GrpA


After a long research, I have finally found an alternative to the Levebre video:

Power Steering

Will now continue work on the Impreza ... stay tuned. smile

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Mai 28, 2019 21:50    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

nice sophisticated joke.

i don't even know why there are different ngp versions, if you are the physics god, just release the final version and thats it.
Maybe you should also advise wrc teams on their steering angles and so on, i guess it would bring better times on stage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUGQ82Tf30c&t=1s&frags=pl%2Cwn

Amazing how you are always right about everything.
By the way, since you develop physics, I would honestly advise you to get a VR headset - you will have a clearer vision of the changes you make to steering angles.
Its sad that no constructive dialog is possible with you, you are too arrogant for that.
have a good day.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Mai 29, 2019 12:44    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Hello guys,
I already tried new Fiesta WRC 19 NGP 6 and it feels so great and powerful.
Did you (that complain about steering) tried to set up the car?
The default setup is quite ok but far away from perfect for me. But I changed it to my taste and the steering seems much much better now.

What's the point? I'm not a racing engineer but IMHO the fact, that these cars can steer so good and fast in real life, is because of whole setup of the car.
 
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