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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Mai 29, 2019 16:52    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:
Hello guys,
I already tried new Fiesta WRC 19 NGP 6 and it feels so great and powerful.
Did you (that complain about steering) tried to set up the car?
The default setup is quite ok but far away from perfect for me. But I changed it to my taste and the steering seems much much better now.

What's the point? I'm not a racing engineer but IMHO the fact, that these cars can steer so good and fast in real life, is because of whole setup of the car.


What is your degrees of rotation setting?
Can you share that Fiesta setup with us? smile

About the responsiveness - I would like to join the discussion, but I can't say anything relevant in this term as I have no relevant data or an actual experience with WRC car to compare it with, but I am quite sure all those onboard videos can be very misleading - especially due the narrow lens which makes all the movement more significant than it is in reality.

I am just afraid we are in a level of speculations with this topic as there is just too many variables which makes the difference in the responsiveness (setup, specific car mode, wheelbase length, etc) and a also in the actual "feel of responsiveness" (camera settings, inability to feel the car like in reality etc).

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Mai 30, 2019 12:49    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I use 540° for WRC and R5 cars..sometimes more for example in Evo IX gr.N.

But I totally agree with you about responsiveness. Everybody has different setups, steering wheel, ffb, fov and camera position etc. and everyone perceives it differently.
But I think WorkerBee "don't count that" as he is physics guy and he want to get right data and right conversion to the game.

For me it's clear: if the steering angle and max steering wheel rotation matches to real life and I can improve it by changing setup - no problem for me.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Mai 30, 2019 13:41    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

maybe pedrodfa not understand. here are 2 facts. first the maximum wheel angle, its define the turning radius. this is the part of physic, which can changed by Workerbee. but here again my question, is it wrong? i belive not. i seen documents, where a Polo R WRC is defined with a turning diameter of aprox 10.3m.
The other point is, how much you must steer for a corner. this is only setup by your steering wheel controler driver. feel free to set it up for yourself. workerbee isn´t able to change that with physic. on the video it looks like he didnt steer more than 360°, try to set your steering wheel to 360° too (i use 320°), maybee you be fine with that.

if you think its wrong, find a way to mesure the turning diameter. the light differences on NGP5/NGP6 comperation makes nothing wrong, because you cant have every detail for every car. sometimes it was used similar data range (we all like, that not all cars feel same) for similar cars

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Mai 31, 2019 11:20    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

so, if you think, you have real datas, then you must do something with a steering filters. You cant set a steering degree on 320°, because real WRCs and R5s have 540° steering degree. Now WRC NGP6 is undriveable with 540°, as pedrodfa said. I dont know what to do with filters, but I believe, Bee can do something with that by ngp or fixup plugin. Steering must be quicker, more responsibility. I have now steering filter on zero point and that is still not good. Must be quicker.
Now its ideal for me driving on 270°, it gives me best responsibility. This is maybe because of WRC and R5 have set on setup on 270°. Just think about it.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Mai 31, 2019 16:26    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Dennis i drove at 450 and aftr 2-3 stages i am in the rhytm, not notocing anything anymore smile

Adrian KLIMAS says, for him very realistic and on 540 degree is ok. Nio problems with radius

No matter what they give us, we drive it biggrin That should be for us in 1st place, we are wannabe rally drivers so lets at least try to act like them, not pussy everywhere around biggrin

To me, steering could always be improved in the milimeterwise movements - like on changing lanes on a autobahn you almost dont move the wheel, in NGP you propably make 2 rotations tongue But that thing could be related more to the tyres to, maybe RBR tyres are somehow "soft" or sidewalls couldnt be modelled well for some reason, idk. With different setups cars turn differently so that behaviour is never jiust to 1 number (expect driving much under limit, then of course its the 270 number)

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Mai 31, 2019 18:41    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

again, the value from steering angle at rbr setup says directly nothing about steering angle or maximum tyre angle. its only a number which need for evaluation of steering gear ratio.

in which situation you have your problems. Its easy to cry its not working but without any backround it is useless to think about. Who can reproduce your problem, if you dont show us your problem on stage (video, replay whatever)
Your predicted problem cant be the right problem, becaus the turning diameter is right !
so please help to find out, where is your real problem (and forget one time the steering angle, turning diameter discussion)

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Mai 31, 2019 19:53    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I believe Dennis wants to say that even with an adjusted setup he finds nearly impossible to handle the car properly when he has the steering angle set according to real WRC car (540). I also think it is at least very challenging to i.e. catch oversteer with that wheel setting, on the other side I can't tell whether it is realistic or not.
Additionally there are also people who say it is not an issue for them, so I can understand WorkerBee is not going to make any radical changes in this area unless he gets some real data to work with.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jun 01, 2019 05:04    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

in wrc i never catch oversteer using my steering wheel smile rather i turn the front wheels even more to cause understeer, and push throttle flat to ake the front diff do its job smile much like wrc car, countersteering can ofter lead to throwing the car to the opposite out and here we go DNF wink

and between all us drivers there are different driving philosophies, and just according to that everyone has a bit different experience. its good when very small things can make a big difference, it is adding to the competition. in original rbr you could just write everything in your muscle memory, and the newer NGP version, the more factors which influence the driving, and somehow driving a rally like VRC liepaja you have to concentrate deeply even thpugh on the tests you have been doing world records one handed, in the race its a different story smile

i wish that an algorythm to randomize grip in the corners could be written so there would be more improvisation. but now, the "ice/gravel crew" games could go quite far inside some teams, but maybe pacenotes mods would become valuable even for memory drivers like me biggrin

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jun 01, 2019 10:11    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

in my opinion, I think we got used to go "flat out" almost everywhere in RBR. We "overdriving" a lot. Even if there is a big hole inside of a corner (convert to real life sometimes about aprox 40cm deep), we just cut it and rbr physics made the job. Even with NGP 5 (which is still good for me) I can drive wrc car quite fast, flat out and catch huge slides and moments just after few weeks "in car". For me in real life it is different. And that's why I love NGP 6. You have to be more precise, more concentrated, you have to understand car behaviour and practice a lot to be really fast and do what you really want.
I love DS3 and Fiesta WRC in Assetto Corsa, even if there are still some mistakes. But there is the "real feel" for me. And same feelings I have with NGP 6. It's just great.
If I want to be fast, go flat out, nothing learn and just have a fun, I can play Dirt rally or something like that. But I want to drive a car, not just steering the wheel.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 02, 2019 12:07    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I thought the goal of NGP is to be as realistic as possible. The goal should be to drive as realistic as possible if we are talking about a simulation. This means: to drive a wrc car with a 540º. Simulation is not necessarily competition - you can have competition in any kind of arcade game. So Jurek, Klimas, they will be fastest in every kind of context, they want to win at any cost, they will play with 90º steering if thats what it takes - Winning comes first than simulation. Well that shouldn't be the goal of workerbee. So please, feedback about this subject should only be given with REALISTIC settings: 540º steering.
Also, just for the ones that may not know: a WRC car has very light steering, since its a 4wd, its much easier to driving with a lot of power steering - drivers get their feeling from the body. So feel free to reduce that FFB to a minimum if you want to get closer to reality. The opposite is true for RWD..
Lambda: I know the difference between steering angle of the wheels and the steering wheels degrees of rotation, like a lot of people here also know, so enough of treating somebody you dont know like a noob. I have many years of this, like you do, and most of us.
People I just came from a stage on friday (Rally Portugal) where Loeb had to park on stage to let Suninen pass, and I saw with my eyes the angles those wheels had in full lock, it had nothing to do with how ngp6 is now. I know this is not data, I just felt like sharing.
Somebody said the polo had a 10.3 meters of turning diameter - I would love to see if this is true in this fiesta 19 ngp6 - it certainly does not look like 10.3 meters from my tests - more like 20meters to be honest.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 02, 2019 16:46    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Zitat:
it certainly does not look like 10.3 meters from my tests - more like 20meters to be honest


I will make something to measure it ingame.

stay tuned

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 02, 2019 18:28    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

pedrofa:

Fully agree.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 02, 2019 19:26    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

OK guys, maybe it's time to start all over again.

It does not make sense to discuss about several different vehicles (or vehicle classes) at once.

As we do not have steering data for all cars, let's pick one where we do have official data.

The only WRC we have data from is the Fiesta WRC.

The official figures are (source: M-SPORT):


Zitat:

FORD FIESTA RS WRC
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATION
STEERING:
Power-assisted high-ratio (12:1) rack and pinion. One and a half turns lock to lock.

DIMENSIONS:
Length: 3963mm. Width: 1820mm. Wheelbase: 2480mm. Weight: 1200kg minimum.



So my first question is:

Do we all agree on that ?

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 02, 2019 23:09    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I agree. So Fiesta WRC 19 has 540° of steering rotation and 12:1 steering ratio. So... for every 12° applied at the steering wheel, the front wheels will turn 1°. Am I right?
With the wheelbase and width I estimate about 15 meters outer turning diameter. But hope you can calculate that as we don´t know all needed values..
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 03, 2019 00:13    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

12:1 ratio and 1,5 turn lock to lock result in a maximum wheelangle (deflection) of 45°, so you get 22,5° per site.

i mesured on the actual NGP6 Fiesta WRC something between 22° and 23° and i test and mesured the turning cicle to aprox 15m (confirmed the statement of WRCPuncture)... surprisingly for myself

the car match to official Ford published Data!

some side facts:
i found few other Data, mostly Ford and Subaru with much differences but no lower ratio than 10,5:1 (2 turns lock to lock,Subaru impreza WRC)

I saw one statement, that The Polo WRC havn´t a liniar ratio, so i dont know if we can trancelate the Polo value to other cars.


at this Point, the Fiesta WRC is modeled absolute right (physic). without better Database we dont need discuss about the turning circle of Fiesta WRC anymore

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 03, 2019 14:55    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

@Bee
Maybe you can change the text and the value of "Max Steering Lock = 270°" to "How Much The Front Wheels Turn = 22,5°"?
It's a little bit confusing setting/value if you don't know what it's really means.

@everyone
I have read somewhere that the car turning circle also depends other things than steering lock.
Camber, caster, toe...
Am I right?
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 03, 2019 15:54    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

@jansku22: I worry that it isn't so simple ("Max Steering Lock = 270°" to "How Much The Front Wheels Turn = 22,5°") because of Ackermanm etc...So both wheels will have little different angle. And, with the known value "270°" we can easily set steering wheel rotation (270x2=540°). Just with angle we can't set right rotation, as in RBR we don't have column for steering ratio so we can't calculate it... and for me it is just easier to read Max Steering Lock and set right value.

And yeah, in my knowledge of turning circle - depends also on other things. We just simplified that to prove that steering is according to real known data by Ford.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 03, 2019 18:51    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

jansku22 hat folgendes geschrieben:
@Bee
Maybe you can change the text and the value of "Max Steering Lock = 270°" to "How Much The Front Wheels Turn = 22,5°"?

Not a good idea.
The "center to lock steering wheel angle" is an input variable, which the driver controls in the end.

Whereas the actual wheel turning angle is just a result of the steering geometry, an output variable.
As is camber, castor, toe and the like.

You may have noticed that you do not change e.g. camber (=output) in your setup.
Instead you change the wheel axis inclination (=input).

jansku22 hat folgendes geschrieben:
It's a little bit confusing setting/value if you don't know what it's really means.

Honestly, I would find the actual wheel angle more confusing, but that is only my opinion. wink

jansku22 hat folgendes geschrieben:

@everyone
I have read somewhere that the car turning circle also depends other things than steering lock.
Camber, caster, toe...
Am I right?

No, not really.
Even the more detailed formulas for calculating the turning circle do not take into account these very details.
Ultimately you would end up having to consider tire temperature, tire pressure, surface when calculating such a primitive and unimportant thing as the turning circle.

BTW I have mistakenly quoted the data of the "old" WRC.
The current 2017/2019 Fiesta WRC is specified as follows:
Zitat:

FORD FIESTA WRC
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATION

STEERING:
Power-assisted high-ratio (12:1) rack and pinion. One and a half turns lock-to-lock.

DIMENSIONS:
Length: 4130mm. Width: 1875mm. Wheelbase: 2493mm. Weight: 1190kg minimum.


Interesting to see that they kept the steering as-is.

But I am still waiting for confirmation from our two fellas ... smile

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 03, 2019 21:40    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Lets say, your philosophy with steering is right. Then Bee, can you make something with steering input? Something with steering axis filters. I have now set it to fast as possible but when I set wheel on 540°, its not quick as I expected. The first input must be sharp for me. Production Fiesta2010 of my father have better, quicker response on steering then Fiesta 19 WRC in RBR on 540° biggrin sorry, but thats my feeling.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jun 04, 2019 09:51    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Sounds about right.

Assetto Corsa has lock-to-lock -setting and rFactor has some kind of tyre-turning-degrees -setting.
So, RBR half-lock it's a bit "weird".
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jun 04, 2019 12:47    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Zitat:
Assetto Corsa has lock-to-lock -setting and rFactor has some kind of tyre-turning-degrees -setting.


whats the problem? i never changed the standard setting (i dont think its needed for anyway)

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jun 05, 2019 12:56    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Zitat:
your philosophy with steering is right
sorry, but as you can read before it is a rebuilt reality not a fantasy "phylosophy" (as your words suggest)

Zitat:
Lets say, your philosophy with steering is right. Then Bee, can you make something with steering input? Something with steering axis filters. I have now set it to fast as possible but when I set wheel on 540°, its not quick as I expected. The first input must be sharp for me.


i dont belive there is any "filter" at RBR between steering wheel driver and RBR steering input. maybe your wheel driver have one ?

make a quick test, set steering to a digital button (0/1) on your wheel and look how fast the tyre move. normaly it should switch instantly.

another test, switch ffb force off and look how fast the tyre move.

Im with you, im also not able to move the WRC car on gravel as i saw on WRC Championship videos. i got often much understeer and can´t produce much oversteer (only few times too much). My settings should be good for agressive oversteer driving.

Maybe that could one point why it feel not "sharp" enough ?

if you want gneraly qicker car reactions, make the suspension harder and set the anti-roll-bars stiffer.

Lamda

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jun 05, 2019 13:07    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Lamda hat folgendes geschrieben:
i dont belive there is any "filter" at RBR between steering wheel driver and RBR steering input. maybe your wheel driver have one ?
I really hope, that the wheel driver has a filter. If not it would be a pretty shitty one.
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jun 05, 2019 13:27    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

there is a filter settings on rbr...
Options - controls - filter settings - steering - axis
 
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A.G.
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jun 05, 2019 13:58    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

As far as i know you should set all filters in RBR controls to zero, also delete the PC Inputfilter file in the RBR folder. Then in the RBR.ini also delete the "constant force filter". That's the way as i know it since many years now.


But i can confirm, it would be fantastic if we could get a feature like in iRacing, set the wheel settings to 900° or 1080° and ingame the sim sets the correct steering for each car.

For me 540° also doesn't feel like it "should" feel, i have my steering wheel configuration at about 440° for a similar feeling like it should be at 540° for me.

Many "aliens" drive (much) less then 440° and that's the second point - i think this is far from realistic, so as i said before, a feature like iRacing, rFactor 2 and so on would be great in terms of fairness too.

Long story make short, i can also confirm that 540° doesn't feel "correct".

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