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wrcPuncture
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jun 15, 2019 23:20    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

about setup (tarmac - Fiesta, for example) first of all I adjust brake balance, diffs and ARB.
- I'm using left foot braking until apex, so if I set little bit more for rear brakes, they help me turn in.
- I prefer diffs that are more open for coast or braking and more lock on power. It enables better turn in and also grip after apex when throttle on. But less stability on braking (combine with BB can causes lots of problems..).
- For ARB I set low value on front and bigger value for rear.

My knowledge about suspensions and dampers are not sufficient and I don't have more time for testing, so if behaviour is still not OK, I try to soften rear/front or to harden front/rear..

I think in real life they adjust dampers and suspension first, then the rest. But I'm ok with my approach.
But I tried some stages with default and seems to be also ok, really depends on driving style. If you have own setup, you can drive it how you want. If you have another setup (which is not suitable to your driving style) you have to adapt driving to car behaviour.

As Niels Heusinkveld said: Cars don't understeer. Drivers make cars understeer. ..So for oversteer it should be the same smile
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 16, 2019 02:46    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:
Cars don't understeer. Drivers make cars understeer. ..So for oversteer it should be the same smile


summing up of last 3 pages in the end smile

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 16, 2019 12:50    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee hat folgendes geschrieben:
Jan, indeed the handling of the engine sounds has been changed in NGP 6.
As this is a matter of taste (personally I have no problems with the sound, you can still clearly hear the engine when off throttle), you may want to use the built-in engine equalizer.
You could increase the volume of each frequency as desired (load/non-load).
Just give it a try. wink

Thanks for the explanation and advices, but increasing the volume doesn't help as they these non-load samples are already loud - you just can't hear them even after gaining the volume.
I believe this is the aspect of the sim which could be little faked to get pleasant results (compared to the physics which needs to be as realistic as possible), so maybe you could just fix it by some "hackish" method to make non-load sound more audible?
You know, there are hundreds of engine sounds which took some time to prepare and which will now sound very poorly (which is shame as the built-in audio is already on of the weaknesses of RBR and this would make it even worse).
I am also in touch with a sound modder he feels little demotivated when he knows there is no chance to make it sound good.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 17, 2019 10:06    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Yesterday I spend some time to test several cars. Im very pleased by Subaru 555, very predictable car, it do what i want. I set 720°on my steering wheel, thats by setup 360x2. I can handle it on tarmac, on gravel, on snow. Best car on NGP6 yet I think.
On all of cars I had problem. At start procedure, I cant start without spinning wheels. It doesnt matter how I try, it always spinning. And when I comming to STOP section, pulling brake very low and wheels are locking. Why is it so?
I dont know, on which level are tyres, but I tried wet tarmac on wet tyres with Fiesta wrc and I think, the grip level is almost like on ice. Very slippy. Otherwise, I tried gravel tyres on tarmac and it feel very grippy. And Bee, can you explain me how works tire pressure on RBR? I was trying many options with pressure but I cant feel difference. On previous versions of ngp cant feel too. Is on NGP 6 some new feature, that can display temperature and pressure?
Last thing I tested was Fiat 124. Firstly I looked on steering angle on set. There was 486°, so I put on my wheel 486x2 = 972°. It seemed to me much, so I set it up to 900°. I tried it on tarmac, Hradek and that was disaster. I cant pull my throttle only on half way, it always spinning, cant handle it, feels like there wasnt any grip on rear. On hairpin I spinning like a carousell. It spins around 360° immediately. If this cars behaves on reality like this, nobody can drive with it.

I made a video for fun with Subaru 555 on gravel tyres on tarmac, it is pleasure to drive with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWY0v1IjOUk
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 17, 2019 11:20    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Fiat 124 Abarth in real life has a traction control to prevent these situations like you described. In NGP however it doesn't so you have to be really careful with the throttle.

Regarding tyre pressure, at least in NGP5 I can feel the difference (didn't play around with setups yet in NGP6). In some cases driving more or less feels the same, but you should notice some time difference. If you don't feel any difference while driving, try to reduce or increase tyre pressure on the rear axle for example, the rear should now - depending on how the pressure is - more or less stable.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 17, 2019 20:45    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Tire pressure has multiple effects.
More pressure --> higher stiffness --> more forces.
More pressure --> smaller contact patch --> higher contact patch pressure --> less forces, but smaller rolling resistance.
+temperature effects ... etc.

Hey, we have a true simulation. It's not just black and white. wink

As soon I have finished the Lancer, I can build the next car with true traction control: Trabant P 800 RS GrpA !!

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jun 18, 2019 16:41    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

and what about starts? on tarmac its very easy to spin wheels. Is that right? Then I try to brake on neutral veeeery carefully till car stopped and before end it locks up wheels, dont know why.
https://youtu.be/-L00RBd_lmI

then I tested, if car moved on downhill, when engine was stalled and there was a gear. And yes, its moved. Doesnt matter if there was neutral or 1 - 6 gear.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jun 18, 2019 20:12    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Dennis Zetak hat folgendes geschrieben:
and what about starts? on tarmac its very easy to spin wheels. Is that right? Then I try to brake on neutral veeeery carefully till car stopped and before end it locks up wheels, dont know why.
https://youtu.be/-L00RBd_lmI

Perfect.

I just don't know what you would expect ?!

You have ~380hp, no traction control.
What else should the wheels do than spinning ??


Dennis Zetak hat folgendes geschrieben:
then I tested, if car moved on downhill, when engine was stalled and there was a gear. And yes, its moved. Doesnt matter if there was neutral or 1 - 6 gear.


I don't understand your description.
So the car starts moving when placed on a downhill section, correct ?

You mean like when on Hradek, at the start ?

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jun 18, 2019 21:46    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

another videos..I don't compare cars now, so differenet stages..

DS3 - Gestel, own setup, 540°
No problem at all. If there was any problem, it was caused by me..
https://youtu.be/mAkrSn-mTO0

Fiat 124 Abarth - Sturec (yeah, again..cause it so easy, isn't it?), own setup, 970°
https://youtu.be/8wPDyriNqy8
I can't drive this car on tarmac with default. It is possible of course, but it spins almost everywhere if I want to go faster. So I tried to made something with setup and now it is really driveable for me - It's not perfect, but after 30 minutes of driving not so bad. Of course I overdrive it a lot so there are still some spins etc. But once you find the way, it is not so hard to drive it. But until now most demanding car in NGP6 for me. The tourque is really huge and it's not easy to be precise with throttle and countersteer.
I already try it on Chirdonhead too and for me gravel default is much better. I need some changes but just a few and then it's pleassure to drive.

Personally, I think the "problem" of NGP6 are default setups. I don't want to say that the setups are bad, we (as drivers) are bad..Many people (including me) got used to drive flatout just after few meters "in car" althought we cannot feel every car movement as in real life etc.
Now it feels more real, more challenging. So if everybody will find setup that suits to their style, I'm not worried about hotlapping/flatout in same way as it is now.

PS: look at the WRC drivers. They are constantly testing, setuping, practising. It's easy to drive WRC car quite fast, but it's not easy to drive it on the edge. And that's difference between top ten and another world..
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jun 18, 2019 22:16    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Dennis, to me the wheels behave completely normally. if you clutch out, you take away the engine load, so wheels ae "lighter" and they lock smile

maybe your tyres were cold ? try to make some donuts first, and then test again

wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:
.

PS: look at the WRC drivers. They are constantly testing, setuping, practising. It's easy to drive WRC car quite fast, but it's not easy to drive it on the edge. And that's difference between top ten and another world..


not really... a rally car is built to react on the limit, so if you go too much under the limit, the movement speed of the suspension, bodywork, differential, everything starts to get out of the working window and the car behaves strange. so in a rally car there is only driving on the limit - now you ask, how do you back off and still make tyres slide? the trick is, you ask the car all the time for 100%, but if you see that you are 30s in front you just change the drving line - less cutting, less wide exit... but there are places where driving 100% for example you jump over 2 crests, and overjump one of them JUST, landing just behind the top of the second and the suspension catches it perfectly. now you are just a bit slowet, and you land your rear wheels right before the top of the 2nd crest (or call it bump). even a small child knows what will happen next smile hualapai 2 is a good example, in the downhill before the fnish there are some jumps, taking them fast and flatout you overjump the 2nd bump. try to slow down, and you dont finish the stage

so a wrc car actually drives easy on the edge, i suppose, but you need good knowledge what to do and what not to do. all the science nowadays in the WRC isnt car control anymore - the science are your private setup or pacenotes preferences, experience (stages knowledge), knowing tricks in choosing the right lines, and being able to recognize every corner quickly and know what speed is the maximum here, and which line or which rut do i need to dive into.

when crash in rbr, its almost never that i have lost control of the car - mostly its when i cut too deep, hit a wrong bump, drove that 5kmh too fast, or when i hit the slippery with the outside wheel. in AWD its very hard to loose control, with these cars regaining the balance extremely quickly.

but when it comes to RWD or S1600 - there cars have their difficulties, even having less power, and in S1600 it happens you loose the rear, and the front in one corner as well, front beeing "overpowered" and then the rear suddenly unloaded, S1600 is for me much more difficult than WRC smile

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jun 18, 2019 22:40    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

anbarra: I understood the point and you're right! But I thought it is easy to drive a wrc car at 90% or 95%. But it's not easy to drive it at 100% for a whole stage. And I thing every wrc driver can confirm that. Ok, Loeb himself said this. He also said he quickly learned to drive xsara wrc, but getting to know the limit was more difficult.. and IMHO we are finding limit almost immediately, and that can be problem..just my opinion.

btw: what do you think about new physics? smile
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jun 19, 2019 08:10    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee hat folgendes geschrieben:
So the car starts moving when placed on a downhill section, correct ?

yes, corrent. If you are on downhill section, engine is stalled, you have 1 or 6 or whatever gear, car is moving.

Im not sure if spinning wheels is so easy. Before stage you get temperature to the tyres, there are "18 michelin slicks, soft compound (compare with usually tyres) and wrcs are awd. I know how hard is getting spinning wheels on R5 and on RBR its very easy. Paradox is, its problem to not spinning wheels.
And on wet tarmac with wrc.. its 1st gear, 2nd, 3rd and wheels are still spinning.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jun 19, 2019 08:38    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Dennis Zetak hat folgendes geschrieben:
WorkerBee hat folgendes geschrieben:
So the car starts moving when placed on a downhill section, correct ?

yes, corrent. If you are on downhill section, engine is stalled, you have 1 or 6 or whatever gear, car is moving.

How would this affect driving on stage at the limit ?


Dennis Zetak hat folgendes geschrieben:
Im not sure if spinning wheels is so easy. Before stage you get temperature to the tyres, there are "18 michelin slicks, soft compound (compare with usually tyres) and wrcs are awd. I know how hard is getting spinning wheels on R5 and on RBR its very easy. Paradox is, its problem to not spinning wheels.
And on wet tarmac with wrc.. its 1st gear, 2nd, 3rd and wheels are still spinning.

Perfect, that's how it is supposed to be.
Have a look at wrcPuncture's videos. Quite good driving.
I love this little wheelspin and slightly drifting ... maybe he does not wear ski boots like some other drivers do !? wink

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jun 19, 2019 09:15    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Are you want to get ngp 6 close to reality or not? Its not only about to get car close to limits.. my last respond, really, its waste of time

keep in good work, best luck
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jun 19, 2019 09:58    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee: I would like to support Dennis here, he just has asked about some realism aspect he consider being potentially incorrect and as you (and other GVRC members here) require an educated feedback from us, it is not fair to smash him by "wrcpuncture is driving quite well" argument or "how does it affect driving at the limit" - this is not an answer he deserves and what we expect by a physics expert.
I really appreciate all of your work, NGP 6 is already FANTASTIC, the same as the FixUp, you are really invaluable person in RBR world, but please try to consider the style of your reactions here - people like Dennis put quite an effort to the NGP testing and if you continue ignoring his input here, you could easily demotivate him to provide us any further feedback (which is very valuable as he is the long-term best CZ RBR driver). He is clearly not trying to just criticize your work, but to help you make NGP 6 as good (realistic) as possible.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jun 19, 2019 10:05    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Dennis Zetak hat folgendes geschrieben:
Are you want to get ngp 6 close to reality or not? Its not only about to get car close to limits.. my last respond, really, its waste of time

And I thought you would never give up. wink

Look, if I was supposed to fix every flaw within the original RBR physics engine, this would become a never ending story.
Actually RBR has a battery, an ignition and a starter.
The starter generates some torque, but this does not really help starting the engine.
Instead, you always have to apply 50% throttle. In neutral gear.
Realistic ? No.
Do I know that ? Yes.

Does RBR have a power switch ? No.
Realistic ? No.
Do I know that ? Yes.

Do you survive a fatal accident ? Yes.
Realistic ? No.
Do I know that ? Yes.

A stalled engine usually restarts when a gear is engaged and the car starts rolling.
Whether the car starts rolling depends on the braking torque of the engine (friction, compression, etc), rolling resistance and the steepness of the road.
It works "ok", but is not worth the effort to make it work perfectly.
That's a waste of MY time.

You are nit-picking, trying to find the fly in the ointment.
This stall/nostall thing has really nothing to do with how good the physics behavior is at all.


Dennis Zetak hat folgendes geschrieben:
keep in good work, best luck

Looks like someone is pissed, finally.
So am I.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jun 19, 2019 10:05    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

i think ngp was already realistic enough with 4.4 now its working on small things. 4.4 was enough to adapt the driving methods to a real evo9 grN and not kill myself, now we got a possibility of snap oversteer which i was missing. that small grip issues here or there... for me any kind of difficulty in driving, a challenge, is very welcome. respect that workerbee has to anticipate many values, he is working on his own and he is not an iRacing, or Asetto produced, so if some behaviour is a bit out of range its not that big problem.

whatever comes out at the end, we have no othen choice than to adapt, shut up and drive biggrin physics are great at the moment, even if there are small errors here and there, the feeling of driving is renewed and this is fun smile

and i live the updated steering smile went to uhorna with 2019 fiesta and default setup (only front brakes down to 4500) and i was flatout with 100% control everywhere, no problem with radius though. had to apply full lock in hairpins, but these are HAIRPINS. it felt not right to me before that i applied 30-40% of turn and didnt even touch the hb

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jun 19, 2019 10:29    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I can tell you all the community (especially the Czech) is currently in love with NGP 6, even Dennis, he is just testing and reporting, that's it! It definitely doesn't mean he doesn't appreciate all of the work and doesn't enjoy it, actually the opposite is true.

Interesting fact - I keep some private communication with both (Dennis & WorkerBee) and while they both have the very same target and passion, all the cooperation struggles on this communication misunderstandings. That's quite funny and sad at the same time!

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Jun 20, 2019 07:41    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Jan, indeed this is an interesting fact.

But ... let's take the RGT as an example.

A supposedly "good" driver (I don't care about online records anyway) is not able to control an absolute beast car (600Nm/300hp RWD) and blames it on the physics.
First thing is "steering can't be right", second is "spins all the time", conclusion is "car is not realistic".

So, how do you expect me to react, after spending weeks for research and days to actually model this car ??

Of course I am aware that this car is very hard to control, but that's not "my fault".
Problem is the modern production car engineering.

Let me explain.

Engineers know that roundabout 300Nm/300hp is all you can handle at one driven axle ...

(I can very well imagine people thinking "Bee is a fool" now ...)

... WITHOUT DRIVING AIDS (or maybe Walter Röhrl at the steering wheel).

Look at Porsche production cars.
When I was young, them 911 had 230hp, or 300hp as turbo, rear engine rear drive (RERD), no traction control, pure driving.
Was not easy to drive at the limit, amateurs had a tendency to spin out or understeer heavily, or both.

Now we have almost 600hp.
Are them engineers and customers crazy ?
Without all these driving aids, traction control, torque vectoring, torque control etc., it would be impossible for the average and even advanced driver to keep such vehicles on the road.

Does big daddy really need a car making 0 to 100 in 3 seconds ?

I mean, what's the point of planting so much power into a car and then limiting it down to something controllable ?
That's ridiculous.

This nonsense is also done in rallying and racing.
Traction control, launch control, stage mode, ABS, anti-stall, anti-(whatever the human driver is not able to handle).

NGP is about pure driving.
No aids at all (and yes, I would even like to remove clutch help/auto shift and all that stuff, just keeping it for keyboard/pad users).

If someone thinks that the RGT steering angle is not correct, post a link to some onboard video truely showing the maximum lock.
Or show me the rally car's data sheet (I already have the downloadable versions, the lock is not mentioned there).

The ==> smile <== Bee

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Jun 20, 2019 16:22    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

New car available:

* Mitsubishi Lancer Evo IX N4

RBRCIT/carList.ini updated.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jun 22, 2019 08:01    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Updated plugin NGP 6.0.743.406 available:

* fixed drag torque of stalled engine

Have a nice weekend ! smile

Trabant already on the workshop platform ...

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jun 22, 2019 11:20    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Thanks Bee for your work and have a nice weekend too! smile
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 23, 2019 10:51    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

jendabek hat folgendes geschrieben:
Bee, I have question about the engine sound - it seems like it doesn't incorporate "no load" samples, or very quietly.
Compare this one engine sound in NGP 6:
https://youtu.be/OX0Xd2OKvs0?t=116

with NGP 5:
https://youtu.be/67Ob5xYterk?t=465

Do you think you could fix it or suggest some workaround? As that silence after releasing the pedal sounds weird smile

Or maybe I just messed up some audio.ini / cars.ini settings (but I haven't change anything after switching from NGP 5 to 6)

Thanks!


jendabek hat folgendes geschrieben:
WorkerBee hat folgendes geschrieben:
Jan, indeed the handling of the engine sounds has been changed in NGP 6.
As this is a matter of taste (personally I have no problems with the sound, you can still clearly hear the engine when off throttle), you may want to use the built-in engine equalizer.
You could increase the volume of each frequency as desired (load/non-load).
Just give it a try. wink

Thanks for the explanation and advices, but increasing the volume doesn't help as they these non-load samples are already loud - you just can't hear them even after gaining the volume.
I believe this is the aspect of the sim which could be little faked to get pleasant results (compared to the physics which needs to be as realistic as possible), so maybe you could just fix it by some "hackish" method to make non-load sound more audible?
You know, there are hundreds of engine sounds which took some time to prepare and which will now sound very poorly (which is shame as the built-in audio is already on of the weaknesses of RBR and this would make it even worse).
I am also in touch with a sound modder he feels little demotivated when he knows there is no chance to make it sound good.


WorkerBee hat folgendes geschrieben:
Jan, indeed the handling of the engine sounds has been changed in NGP 6.

Previous releases did not care about the actual engine load and torque and that stuff.
Instead, the original RBR engine with the hardcoded 2 liter / 500 Nm / 300 hp has been used to actually "render" the sound.

In NGP 6 the engine has the real capacity, compression ratio etc.
So it has to sound "different".

As this is a matter of taste (personally I have no problems with the sound, you can still clearly hear the engine when off throttle), you may want to use the built-in engine equalizer.
You could increase the volume of each frequency as desired (load/non-load).
Just give it a try. wink

Fun fact: as I wanted to use the original engine when starting NGP 6 development, I soon had to realize that RBR actually uses kind of an air pump with integrated enthalpy generator to produce the engine torque. Actually it does not burn the fuel, so increasing the capacity or injected fuel does not increase the power. sad
Same applies to the idle handling, or better say, close to idle handling. The engine is just too weak in the lower revs, as it would require later ignition and more fuel.
Although the turbo uses real world turbine/compressor mappings, it still is only an additional air pump, increasing the air pressure used.
Quite a disappointment to be honest, so I had to stick to my already perfectly working engine implementation.
But I have enhanced the RBR engine to consume the appropriate amount of fuel for heat and temperature management.


With the sound i have problems too - when i leave the throttle, i will nothing hear or extrem silent, inside the car on drivers place! Don´t test it outside at TV or following cam.
At the new car, the Lancer evo IX, when you leave throttle there is no "shooting" of engine to hear, there is nothing.
This is with all "eng-files" happening, which i was testing - Why?
When i´m rolling to a junction in a low gear, the enginge normally screaming or in case of evo IX N4 the "shooting" - but nothing at all Rolling Eyes cry
Do i something wrong or is it the new soundmodel, because in NGP5 i didn´t have any problems in this case?!

The physics are themselves a very great work & i think theese are very closed to reality - thanks!

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 23, 2019 12:23    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

What about this ?

I can't barely hear anything as soon as that guy is coasting or braking.

Only at some throttle applied the engine does some audible noise.

I really wonder why I do not see the problem, having high quality sound gear ? Confused

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 23, 2019 13:01    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee hat folgendes geschrieben:
What about this ?

I can't barely hear anything as soon as that guy is coasting or braking.

Only at some throttle applied the engine does some audible noise.

I really wonder why I do not see the problem, having high quality sound gear ? Confused


What about these?
https://youtu.be/5OHZHxde8RE?t=984
https://youtu.be/Z1KFaFAmG58?t=205
https://youtu.be/sq6nDsO8dCk?t=703

I guess everyone can choose a video to support his preferences, but generally I believe that silence is not right in the most of cases.

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